In late December an “event page” on facebook was attacked. The page was celebrating a prayer vigil for wolves that was to be held in Salem, Oregon. And the attackers swooped down electronically the day after the event and filled the page with bloody pictures of wolf kills and fetal deer purported to have been “aborted” by wolves. The action was disturbing and eerily like the protests held by the Westboro Baptist Church, where they show up where they are not wanted and act in the most offensive and inappropriate manner possible.
The Westboro mob is classified as a hate group and rightfully so. They—like the anti-wolf folks—are generally overflowing with unbridled faith, strongly held opinions and self-righteousness and somewhat bereft of relevant education, understanding, or any form of tolerance or compassion. Both groups are classic bigots in that they hold unfounded and yet deep beliefs and will not let facts or reason dissuade them from dishing out broadsides of vitriol towards the object of their scorn whether it be homosexuals, people of color, members of other religions or wolves.
Is Wolf Hatred Gateway Bigotry?
Do I go too far in linking bigotry against wolves with the same attitudes against individuals and sectors of the human population? I don’t think so. Studies have conclusively linked animal abuse
to child abuse, domestic violence and even serial killing. The experts assert that these acts are all parts of the same dangerous syndrome. I strongly suspect that bigotry is a related syndrome and behaves the same way. And I have seen enough human-directed bigotry—mainly racial, anti-Semitic and life-style directed—on the facebook pages of these anti-wolf actors and their compatriots to think that, once started, predator bigotry translates quite easily across the wildlife-to-human spectrum.
Science is Not a Religion and Opinions are not Facts
“Now that the offices of the Babylonian Pope almost completely rules this planet through his many countless satellite corporations he doesn't need to keep building his American Army for world conquest. Now that he believes he is finally close to the completion of his 12th Crusade in 2000 years where he attains Mount Moriah, removes that filthy Dome of the Rock Mosque, and rebuilds Solomon's Third Temple to rule this Worldly system from. He can cull his American herds. thats you and me Bob, and our children. Thats his sciences you're pushing, all nice and pretty, why everyone should just love saving the Mother, returning Mother to her once Pristine wild natural Garden of Eden, the counterfeit eden. Where all the non believing atheist and real Bible believing heretics starve to death. It's just brilliant. Do you get the hint? Do you see what's been going on while you had your head stuck in those bushes observing how some nature works? The rest of the story Bob. This world has a rest of the story. What the hell do you think all of those papal serving 30th through 33rd degree initiated Masonic political hacks have been doing all of these years? You want us to believe in his garbage nature worship?”
(Skinny Moose Blog January 7, 2013
)—The above is a post from Greg Farber in response to statement about public land ownership, wolves and science. Mr. Farber is a plumber and wolf hater who posts regularly on the Skinny Moose Blog and elsewhere under various aliases such as Rattler Rider and Sawtooth Rider. Because of rants like the one above Mr. Farber has been banned from posting on The Wildlife News
Wolf-haters—like climate change deniers—are people of faith rather than reason. Are these generalizations justified? All I can say are the trends are strong and consistent. For example, they tend to believe and frequently promote ideas such as reducing environmental protections and waiting for trickle-down economics to work because they have been told these actions will improve their financial conditions, though studies and experience indicate exactly the opposite.
They also strongly subscribe to the notion that more guns in the US will make them safer and more secure when numbers and a simple scanning of current events indicate that a well-armed US is decidedly less safe. Across the board these brave souls generally responded to the recent tragedy in Connecticut with calls to arm teachers and reminders to their compatriots to stock up on certain weapons before it was too late.
Moreover, they seem to have some sort of intellectual equivalent to a semi-permeable membrane that only allows them to believe reports and studies that indicate that wolves are devastating deer, elk and moose populations as well as reducing their personal safety. In all of this they tend to select which “experts” to believe based on the how well those experts agree with their preconceived ideas just as they would select a preacher based on their perception of god and various religious tenets. As a result, the wolf-haters end up being deeply devoted to a rag-tag group of fringe commentators or contrarian scientists and everyone who disagrees with them or their champions is either stupid, on drugs, or blinded by the “green” or “liberal” media.
What the anti-wolf crowd cannot win via honest and fact-based debate is achieved through insult, bullying and threat. They are emboldened in this approach by the successes they achieve when rolling out their tortured arguments on like-minded forums such as the Skinny Moose site where they are thick as fleas. In contrast, where they are largely absent are from forums occupied by working wildlife biologists such as The Wildlife Society, Society for Conservation Biology, and Wildlife Professionals discussion groups on LinkedIn. I suspect that their absence has to do with past responses they have received from folks with grounding in science and tendencies toward respectful and analytical debate.
The Raiders and Their Colleagues
There were a handful of folks who aggressively invaded the facebook event page, which was eventually taken down. The core perpetrators were Scott Rockholm, Chandie Morse Bartell, and Bill Kelly. These are names known to people working on wolves who have suffered through venomous dialogues with these anti-wolf zealots who can selectively quote chapter and verse from flawed reports or irrelevant studies, but like what we classically envision as Bible-thumpers do so with self-interest at the forefront and little understanding of actual meaning or context.
is the producer/director of the documentary/fantasy film called Yellowstone is Dead. Scott is a native Californian who now lives in Sand Point, Idaho. He runs the Rockholm Media Group and also is the President and CEO of Save Western Wildlife
(see below) which purports to be about saving wildlife in the West as well as the Western culture and lifestyle. SWW claims to be a non-profit and is registered in Idaho but has not developed a website and has not apparently posted their tax information with the IRS. And just how far out there do you have to be
to have David Allen
feel obligated to distance himself from you?
Chandie Morse Bartell
is a prolific anti-wolf poster who has a degree in elementary education, taught young children in Potlatch, Idaho and boasts that her third grade teacher in Idaho had them sing Dixie after they did the Pledge of Allegiance each morning. She is clearly carrying on that legacy of intolerance and anti-federal sentiment that she learned so many years ago. And nowhere is that illustrated more strongly than in her nearly constant stream of anti-wolf and pro-gun comments on her facebook page and on a multitude of electronic forums
in the Rockies. Her facebook page is a who's who of the anti-wolf crowd including No Wolves and the apply named Antiwolf Nut as well as Tony Mayer
convicted elk poacher and anti-wolf activist of saveelk.com fame.
“If us pushing that wolf back over to be shot in idaho works.. we willc ontinue to push many more back for the shooters. hell we will even pay for the ammo. ha ha ha ha.”—Bill Kelly
claims to have been educated by Mafia Wars which rings true when you read the above quote in reference to a collared wolf that migrated from Oregon where is was legally protected to Idaho where it is not. His suggestion of “pushing” Oregon wolves to Idaho for slaughter probably makes sense in Mafia Wars where laws and illegalities are likely encouraged.
When we take the time to understand the philosophies and motivations of the above exhibited on their facebook pages and elsewhere, the underlying themes are of hate and intolerance. We also find that they are mostly high school educated or hold undergraduate degrees in fields little relevant to understanding the complex mechanisms of predator-prey relationships, trophic cascades, gene-flow, experimental design and the subtleties of concepts such as niches, hyper-volumes, biological potential, carrying capacity, and compensatory versus additive predation. In fact, they tend to hold those educated in the field in low regard calling them "eggspurts." They also all seem to be friends with Robert T. Fanning—the failed anti-wolf gubernatorial candidate in Montana and driver behind the wolf hate group, The Friends of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd
and they are all white (i.e., Caucasian).
Save Western Wildlife
The above comment stream–again a PG-13 selection–was taken from the Save Western Wildlife facebook page and these were in response to a news story on wolves that were illegally killed in Wyoming. Save Western Wildlife (SWW) was founded in 2010. The three founders were Scott Rockholm, Frederic C. Rockholm Jr. and Todd Fross. Scott and Frederic are brothers originally from California now living in Sand Point, Idaho and Mr. Fross is a trapper and the ranch manager of the Broken Anvil Ranch in Lander, Wyoming. The sole actions of this organization seem to be Scott Rockholm’s public advocacy/attacks on various policies and people and the dialogs on the SWW facebook page. The tenor and content of the discussions on the SWW facebook page are disturbing as the site seems to attract the worst of the anti-wolf, anti-science and anti-government camps. Regular posters range from biblical stewardship advocate and former USFS employee Steve Busch to a whole host of posters who seem only capable of typing phrases that all translate to “kill all wolves.” The irony of a biblical stewardship advocate condemning conservation biology as a green religion is sweet on some level, but viewing the number of people drawn to this site who define themselves, in part, by the weapons they carry or the animals they kill or hate should be deeply sobering.
Koch Brothers Jump Into the Fray
David Spady in a more typical costume.
As if the above was not enough, the California Chapter of Americans for Prosperity —a Koch Brothers founded and funded astro-turf front group—recently released a laughably deceptive anti-wolf video. In this piece Chapter Executive Director and Fox News darling, David Spady, dons a trendy ski cap and flannel shirt
in a transparent effort to exude an “everyman” appeal. And then in his manufactured casualness he spews scripted misinformation at a machinegun pace.
I am sure that some creative college student will design a drinking game around this video where sips are taken whenever Mr. Spady utters an untruth, makes a mistake or constructs an illogical statement in this propaganda piece. I would argue against this approach, because the exposure is dangerously high.
Certainly there are the obvious factual faux pas like claiming that cattle actually help reduce the impacts of climate change or that grazing does not impact water quality, wildlife and erosion rates. The mistakes are interesting too from confusing Oregon State University with University of Oregon and talking about something called “greenhouse warming” to claiming that the environmental community wants to recover wolves so that they eat cattle and curtail global warming. What?
The tortured illogic is entertaining as well particularly the argument about “trespassing” wolves. Trespassing is a human construct and all wildlife species are allowed to go where they go. Characterizing it as a threat to private landowners is expressly designed to push the buttons of the property rights crowd but is logically problematic as wolves in California are likely to focus their activities on large areas of public lands and tend to avoid settled areas. When searches are made for suitable wolf habitat, areas with people and roads are ruled out. It is also interesting given the shared roots of AFP and the Tea Party that AFP would carry the water for the heavily subsidized livestock industry.
The Hunting Community Must Police Itself to Survive
Roughly 6% of the US population over 16 years of age hunts. While that percentage rises sharply in rural areas where they sometimes close high schools on the opening day of deer season, it still means that 94% of the eligible population in the US does not hunt. In my mind that means that hunters—including myself—need to be very cautious that our “brand” is not compromised by yahoos like those profiled above who seem to shoot everything and think that Fair Chase and other hunter’s ethics do not apply to them or where predators are involved. Perhaps—if their goal is to continue to enjoy permission and support from the 94% non-hunters—legitimate hunting groups might want to work harder on mechanisms that focus on the quality of new hunters recruited rather than quantity.
In truth, while these “slob hunters” and thrill killers bolster hunter numbers they likely do more harm than good. On a related note, hunters also need to deal with the very real issue of poachers and poaching—which may or may not be related to these outliers and their utter contempt for science, Fair Chase, wildlife agency employees and laws. This situation is somewhat similar to issues that surround the martial arts field where the vast majority of practitioners enter martial arts training for the defensive reasons or because of the spiritual aspects of the discipline and there are those that gravitate towards martial arts because they want to be able hurt others. These anti-wolf folks have much in common with the latter example.
There Remain Ethical and Appreciative Hunters
After plowing through the ignorance and intolerance of the above group and their allies, it was refreshing to see a piece where the hunter involved appreciated his encounter with a competing predator
and his first thought was not one of how he could blast it into the next county. Nor was he jumping forward to have himself photographed with his prey and speculating about which taxidermist to use or what wall space remained open. Regardless of how one feels about hunting, having this type of hunter in the field seems much preferable to one driven by hate.
With the Wolf the Federal Government Must Play Parent
Excerpt from Endangered Species Act:
To be considered for listing, the species must meet one of five criteria (section 4(a)(1)):
1. There is the present or threatened destruction, modification, or curtailment of its habitat or range.
2. An over utilization for commercial, recreational, scientific, or educational purposes.
3. The species is declining due to disease or predation.
4. There is an inadequacy of existing regulatory mechanisms.
5. There are other natural or manmade factors affecting its continued existence. (Underlinging added)
I once met with a group of Japanese environmental activists visiting the US to gain insights. One of the concepts that was most difficult for them to understand was the interplay between state and federal governments. The analogy that finally worked with them and their interpreter was describing the federal government as a “backstop.” They were clearly baseball fans and got the analogy quickly. In retrospect I should have said parent rather than backstop because the federal government needs to be proactive rather than passive.
In short, the federal government has to act like the adult in the room. And with the wolf that means honestly addressing the damage that has been done by these folks and others who have worked diligently to sink the wolf recovery program under a mountain of myths and unfounded fear. These are hate groups and they need to be treated as such. Moreover, the damage they have done through their actions must be properly addressed and treated like any other habitat challenge. Yes it is difficult and these individuals and groups are dogged in their pursuit of a wolf-free world, but these anti-wolf efforts are “manmade factors” that materially affect the continued existence of the wolf.
While there can be debate about the appropriate legal mechanism to solve this serious issue it seems obvious that it needs to be federal or perhaps even international in nature; state performance on this issue has been largely inadequate as they seem more victims of the phenomenon than correctors. The state wildlife agencies are also driven by wildlife commissioners that often have political rather than scientific agendas which makes it unlikely that continued wolf recovery becomes a state priority . One promising approach that we are seeing in the European Union (EU) is something known as “favourable conservation status” which is applied to species of “community interest.” In the EU wolves fall under this classification and the status requires that the species are looked at across boundaries and that analyses such as minimum population viability analyses are undertaken and that those studies drive management.
We at Cascadia Wildlands are interested in this approach and are hosting a panel at the Public Interest Environmental Law Conference
here in Eugene at the end of February to explore this concept and also others to address the future status of wolves. Our own legal fellow Tamara Schiff will present a paper and hopefully some of the concepts introduced will help the US Fish and Wildlife as they complete their own examination of the future of wolves in the West. We know that no approach will ultimately be successful unless it includes aggressive and concrete steps to address the propaganda campaign that has been waged against wolves.
Looking to Get Informed and Take Action?
Additional Reading on Federal Wolf Reclassification and Organized Anti-Wolf Propaganda:
and watch this site and our e-news
for announcements on federal wolf reclassification proposal
98 thoughts on “Identifying and Dealing with the Anti-wolf Forces (PG-13)”
EXCELLENT writing, Bob!! You hit the nail on the head in describing and pointing out the commonalities and common denominators in the anti-wolf crowd. WELL DONE!!!!!
I call this piece a five-star smackdown on the anti-wolf crowd. Suck our balls, haters! We've got the big ones and you have none!
I don't know whether to laugh or cry here. I have watched my beautiful state being beggared and the wildlife held hostage by green groups. They begged and sued for spotted owl 'habitat' then barred most uses of public lands. Those lands then burned, so hot that even after 10 years the land is sterile. So much for their science. The owls are quite happy nesting behind billboards for pete's sake. It's amazing how adaptable the wild life can be. I see photos all the time showing elk mothers giving birth by human occupied buildings because of the wolves. Adaptive behavior at it's best. I don't believe that the wolves should be wiped out again, however, they do need to be managed. The cheapest way, is to have hunters do it, vs paying tax dollars to federal hunters. It is a fact that wolves have large territories, and seem quite willing to move should the need arise, as in the prey move or are hunted out. They will clash with man. I know that a lot of your readers are of the belief that ranchers are scum but a vast majority of ranchers are excellent stewards of the land in their care. To penalize them, villify them and run those ranchers out is unethical. Your characterism of gun owners and hunters is also rather histrionic. Really? Racist and comparable to the Westboro church?? The rudest folks I have ever seen on the blogs have actually been the radical green people. advocating violence and destruction and wishing for humans to be killed. How sad is that….Most of the national groups could care less about a true animal cruelty situation too. My mother begged for the sierra club and center for biological diversity to come or even write a letter when the jerk next door hired someone to burn a hedge that was filled with birds and bunnies. No, no headlines so not even a response. Nice folks you have there.
I also like how you have cherry picked those "comments" from the other side. Good job. Your great supporter Lloyd is a lunatic by the way. YOu lose brownie points from moderate people when you post her name. I look forward to seeing if my comment makes the cut….
I, again, applaud you for your truths! The brutal mentality of the wolf-haters has been very graphic (literally) over the past two years via their savage posts and their glee over the bloody photos of dead wolves. Then they have the audacity to accuse wolf advocates of not liking people — yet when a wolf advocate 'tries' to engage them with a question, their responses are shockingly vile and brimming with venomous hatred—apparently their unfounded disdain for wolves, carries over to all living beings.
There is also a handful of "leaders" of the wolf-hating groups, who are do make the hair stand up on the back of your neck—engaging with them, one knows they are in the presence of evil. The same mentality and lack of empathy that would prey on all the innocents of our world.
I would ask that you take a close look at the background of a few of some of these "leaders"….you will see that they are nothing more than transplants from other states, who are of the militia mentality and wanted to make a name for themselves, and what easier door to open than that of the "big, bad wolf door"?! (Lobo Watch and Save Western Wildlife). One or two of them have made a lucrative living for themselves, making it a 24/7 job to malign wolves and fear-monger their way to a thick wallet. They exploit their own following…there is simply no depth to which they will not stoop. They lie about wolves all of the time–they even photo-shop wolves in a bad light — they lie about and malign wolf advocates continually. I, personally, have had two petitions written about me—all lies—and have been threatened with death and rape. ….no Albert Schweitzer Awards given out in these groups!
I think there is a huge difference between responsibly managing the wolf population and the holy war against wolves that has been advocated by folks highlighted in this post. As to ranchers there are good and bad and some of the ones who think they are good are really not as good as they think. And if you look carefully on this site you will not see us calling ranchers “scum.” Thee livestock industry–particularly public lands ranchers–have been extreme effective at creating the myth that they provide great community benefit and little damage. Economic and ecological studies do not support this notion. Public lands ranching is heavily subsidized and causes incredible damage. I love visiting Idaho but am frustrated that many there cannot understand the problematic thinking that with 2.2 million cattle, 100,000 elk and 700 or so wolves that wolves are the problem.
I live in Sandpoint and sometimes see Scott Rockholm at IDFG meetings. He came to one meeting wearing a gun (to protect himself from the pro-wolfers I guess).
Anyway, thanks for the intelligent article. I see many analogies between the grass-roots movement to raise awareness about the necessary role of wolves in nature and the civil rights movement where our society had serious arguments about whether “black” people are entitled to the same human rights as “white” people. That controversy is hard to imagine now (tho the attitude still exists in pockets here and there). Hopefully, within 100 years, the public’s attitude (and the attitude of our state wildlife managers) will have similarly fallen onto the ash heap of history.
Give it up, DeeDee. Your attempt to argue the points in the article defies logic. As does your ad hominem attack.
Excellent piece. I was one of many, in the peaceful group, on Mato’s prayer for the wolf page. Beautiful pictures of the wolf, beautiful posts, and then we got bombarded with these anti-wolf thugs! They started posting pictures of dead and bloody wolves, in horrific positions, as they smiled for the camera with their kill. I know better, but I was so outraged that they came on a peaceful site, that I calmy told them how wrong they were, and that they should take their pictures elsewhere. I even threw out a few facts. I knew better, but, I tried.
First, I got completely torn apart for my profile picture…they attacked my looks, said I was a he/she, oh….it was endless. But, that was OK. I can certainly handle that. But, then Chandie reared her scary head, telling people to watch out for me, because I have been at this for a long time with others of the pro-wolf old timers group. Yes, I have gone the rounds with her and her kind before. I realized that they had done what they came to do, they destroyed a beautiful page, and it was taken down.
Do not argue with them, you will be attacked and you will not win. They use a specific playbook and they are relentless and will not listen to any fact that you give them. It has been a long time since I have dealt with them, before this last exchange. I will not do it again. That is what they want. And the frightening thing is….they know who we all are.
They should not win. The wolves die, when they win. I will never give up fighting for the wolves, but I have given up fighting with the braindead. My two cents…
You freaking looney Wolfaboos really need to get a life. Wolves are evil and are best served with BBQ sauce. If I had an axe, I would split the skull of a wolf pup wide open. I hate wolves and wolf lovers.
So are you thinking that your response rebuts my assertions?
LOL …LOL…LOL…YOUR SOOOOOOOO FUNNY!!! LOL OH AND NO THANKS …..GO SUCK YOUR OWN BALLS IDIOT!!
I must say that I am quite the anomaly myself, as I am a person of Faith – and therefore characterized here by definition as the opposite of a person of Reason. However, that is where the similarities end. Besides my faith and relationship with Christ, I do not align myself with the other values mentioned here. In fact, my belief system tells me that we need to be good stewards of the earth that our God gave us and we need to protect it, including the creatures He gave us…not to vilify individual species, such as the wolf. If we are to be like Christ, we need to love like Him, not plaster bloody photos all over peaceful websites in an effort to stir up disharmony with our fellow human. My values are Christian, but also Green and Progressive and I found your article both brilliant and frighteningly accurate in its comparisons. Bravo to you!
Anyone pro wolf management is a wolf hater according to you. Under this definition we must hate elk and deer as well, since we shoot them in state sanctioned hunting seasons, we hate fish then since we hook them and cook them. You also ignore the pecking order of mankind which is a serious problem that relates to all management and politics. You cherry picked the comment and you did not refute it, because you know you cannot. In two discussions we had in the last year I agreed that the wolf is not totally to blame for the declines in elk here where I live. While I disagree that habitat was part of the problem here, I do agree that migrating elk moving into controlled hunt units with longer seasons was. Also cow elk and doe deer have been over hunted here for years. IDFG at the meetings ignored the hunters in attendance that wanted those hunts stopped or reduced. You've posted unfair claims here about myself, I am not the least bit surprised at the low down extreme character assassination you've attempted here. All you're accomplishing here is driving the wedge of division deeper. Well done Bob.
The only cherry picking that I have done in this piece is to carefully select quotes and pictures that were not laced with profanities, did not contain death threats or were not filled with gore. That was often times difficult. If anything I have been kind. Hopefully you and your compatriots will take a deep look at how you interact with others and the images you project–it is clearly not a pretty picture.
Are you serious? Are we legislators, congressmen, high profile ranchers, governors, or IDFG commissioners? No Bob, we're nobody voters. Are you actually claiming we had any influence on the actions of the public officials? really? And you've singled us out, out of thousands of others across the states? You've failed to convince the people with political authority and you're demonizing citizens for your failure. I've a good mind to seek legal council in the morning for this Bob. I certainly never made death threat's towards anyone ever. And would never allow them at the BBB. I expect the email; and phone harassment of my children and other family members to begin shortly. Thanks a lot Bob.
"I think there is a huge difference between responsibly managing the wolf population and the holy war against wolves that has been advocated by folks highlighted in this post."
Greg, One would have sympathy for this except for the fact that you have taken pictures of activist and their homes and threaten to post those pictures and release their addresses. Or did you forget about doing that? See: Greg Farber • 2 years ago − I have photoed their homes, vehicles, and them about town.. Some day a very revealing blog may just get posted. But these people do not need any help destroying their own legacy's, their doing a fine job of it themselves.. It's only a matter of time. (http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010/08/08/wolves-listed-wolves-delisted-the-incompetent-usfws/)
This was in connection with researching property records for a lawsuit concerning character assassination attacks against myself by anonymous commenters, and vandalism of my vehicle, for my position of being pro wolf management. The comment was intended as a deterent and it worked. A private invesitgator was involved and no laws were broken. It is legal to identify property via public records.
As well, Lynn Stone identifed my property, my truck, and my license plate number, "Mules" at the time on the Wildlife news. So this is a dead issue being blown out of proportion, mainly because the information was never posted. You see Bob, they were doing it to me. Attacking my blogs with uncivil comments, Calling my almost 80 year old father at his home and screaming filth at him, harassing my sister, harassing some of my business clients. thus I was legally preparing a law suit. Nothing more.
Fairy propagandistic. The characterization of those whith whom you hold differing veiws as being akin to Westboro, bigots, and spousal abusers. Couldn't you have just said you disagree?
Likewise I'm put off by the characterization of the pro scientific management crowd as being right wing tea party types. I"m a partisan Democrat, precinct captain, and proud of it. Of our list of registered current D voters we turned out 93%, the highest rate in our state. I'm in no way a Koch supporter.
Say what you wil about the Bad Bear Blog they did let you come and say your piece didn't they? Even when you tried to belittle them based on your supposed education. No wolf kissing blog would allow that. You didn't come out so well in that tit for tat either as I remember.
As you know RMEF had a record year in 2012, highest number of members ever, they grow every year. Like wise big game hunters increased by 9% in 5 years. There's a reason you and that other guy don't work at Bugle. Pound sand.
Chandie also brags about her family killing native people. Wolf killers are monsters. I used to think they lied about wolves being a danger to people so that the world would accept their acting like beasts and killing these wonderful animals. I've changed my mind.. These people are just very stupid , sick and very stupid,
Associating me with animal abuse? I’m associated with a DVM,, child abuse?, domestic violence? and even serial killing apparently. "mainly racial, anti-Semitic and life-style directed—on the facebook pages of these anti-wolf actor" I wonder if you know I've never had a face book page… I'm pro Israel, help repair wounded animals wild and domestic, own twenty animals, Have researcher colleagues who are Japanese, African, Asian, Indian, Spanish, covering history. One of my most astute Biblcial and Pagan Symbol’s instructors is a Black man. He is brilliant.
Really? Then you'll love the blog I'm researching and sorting out right now about Pierre-Jean De Smet's fomenting of the deaths of Indigenous heretics and protestants during the settling of the American West after the Civil War, by getting those Indigenous Turtle Islanders to attack and raid protestant settlements, which in turn "justified" the genocide of those Indigenous Turtle Islanders later by the settlers and the Union Army. It's killing two heretics with one trick. Should post it soon.
This is a spot on opinion piece.
As a matter of fact it is chronicled in the Latah County Historical Society that the Palouse Band dug quamash on our farm, would cross the fields singing lullabys to their papooses, and also raced their ponies in one of our fields. Our farm was visited by our Third Grade Class, that Bob Ferris mentions above on a Field Trip, where we visited Pioneer Homesteads, includin Lolo Clyde's Place, and Lawrence Paul. Lawrence Paul was my Dad's best friend, farmed right next to us, and his barn was built with wooden pegs.
I think Bob's point was well proven by some of these responses. The threats, the name calling, the piling on, it's all there, just as the way Bob eloquently presented in the original post. Again, well done, Bob!
HOW CAN YOU TELL IF THE OTHER-SIDE IS LOSING?
When pro-wolf ant-hunting extremists get REALLY deserate, no LIE is long enough!
Bob Ferris has been getting desperate! So desperate he and his minions had to infiltrate
my facebook page, but what a disappointment!
I make posts hundreds of posts, many about history. As one of my majors is in History, I am also a dedicated history buff, and Bob Payette, (A Civil War Reenactor from Alabama), who frequently discusses Civil War battles with me, as well as reenactment scenes. This video clip, Dixie Land was filmed after a reenactment scene. The reenactors that were filmed live, had a reunion in their tent afterwards, with a performance and a dance, playing the Confederate Anthem Dixie Land in this clip.
It's important to note, that most Historians would have recognized this piece of Civil War trivia, and that is Abraham Lincoln, the Great Emancipator, was an ardent admirer of the Confederate National Anthem, and requested it to be played, the day before General Lee signed the conditions of surrender at Appomattox Court House.
Abraham Lincoln loved the Confederate National Anthem so much, the first time he heard it at a show by the Rumsey and Newcomb Minstrels in Chicago in 1860, he clapped his hands and shouted, "Let's have it again! Let's have it again!"
Abraham Lincoln also stated at the time of surrender, That Dixie Land doesn't belong to the South anymore, it now belongs to all of us!
Abraham Lincoln ordered the song, Dixie Land to be played on board of the River Queen. With the end to the Civil War, which had lasted four years, seemingly in sight, President Lincoln gave his Second Inaugral Address on March 4, 1865. He proclaimed, "With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nations's wounds." With that idea in mind, on April 8, 1865, the day before Confederate commander Robert E. Lee surrendered to Union General-in-Chief Ulysses S. Grant, Lincoln requested that a military band on board the River Queen play Dixie's Land, the song to which nearly all the Southern attacks had been conducted.
Bob Ferris also didn't note that I have posted many Union favorites as well like, "When Johnny Comes Marching Home."
This is worse than "cherry picking" to achieve a pre-determined desired outcome, which Conservation Biology is so flimsely based upon, that has effected so many people's livelyhoods health and safety, this is singly handidly, creating "character assasination" based upon Social Bigotry. I find it ironic that Bob Ferris' friends and supporters are the "same" familiar names of radical extremists, that we have had to endure on all of our state government facebook pages for several years. These same people have no problem creating lies about ranchers, demonizing sportsmen, and even have targeted me for being disabled. For people that claim not to be predjudice or bigots, this group are the worst example of Social Bigots and Hypocrites as well as Liars I have ever met. No attack is to low for any of them.
I have been targeted all week by Bob Ferris friend, Gary Wilson who obviously has infiltrated my facebook page. Gary Wilson got on Blackbearblog and viciously attacked me with such revengeful intensity, I was receiving phone calls from friends about his level of aggression towards me, as they were concerned about my safety. I promised not only my family, but many friends I would contact my lawyer to receive legal conseling on how to take the appropriate steps to protect myself. Most notedly were his comments of extreme predjudice labeling me as an invald, wheelchair cripple, intermingled with the words "evil bitch" and how he was going to get even with me, but 2 times more. This was supposedly over a post he claimed I made about his father, which I didn't. But that didn't matter to Gary. I first met Gary on the IDFG page when he was sent over there by Kristi Lloyd and Ken Cullins, "to rip me a new A$$hole" as Ken Cullings put it. Evidence from screen shots.
I find it interesting that these "extremists" have no problem attacking the rural Americans in the West, and especally handicapped people such as myself, making "fun" of me and reveling openly in print on the internet that they are glad I can't breed, and never had children, as well as they hope I die from E.g., and I deserve to be in chronic pain according to Gary Wilson. The lies that were told about me are so fantastic, that I made copies of the entire thread, especally the ones where Gary enjoys the thought of me physically suffering from my diabilities, but in the next comment accuses me of being a Social Security Fraud, and too lazy to work. *All these comments have been copied off including: pre-edited and post-edited versions, where he goes back and deletes the words "Evil Bitch."
None of these people in the Rocky Mountain States, and most are making a livelyhood from the wolf introduction racket and scam. What is really disturbing is that these same people are accusing the citizens that live in the areas of impact of "bullying" when "they're forcing they're personal presence upon these individuals, on their own state government pages.
I'm from a farm family, as much as that bothers these people, as I have read their screen shots saying how sick they are of hearing me state that I am a farmer's daughter or Native Idahoan. My family never abused animals, but we raised animals for food at times. My dad specifically enjoyed hunting and fishing much more than raisng beef and poultry. We never tortured animals and hunters prefer a clean quick kill so the animal doesn't have to suffer.
My family also never killed Native Americans. That is a lie that was originally started by Elizabeth Lewis.
I think if this article proves anything, it substantiates the fact that radical anti-hunting extremists are anti-human unless it is their own existence of course. It also demonstrates that they're disturbed and are promoting the Re-Wilding Agenda, also known as Agenda 21, the Wildlands Project.
Most recently we have an environmentalists that worked on the Wildlands Project for 30 years, and even helped design the map. He has changed to our side, and his information is very valuable in learning about the secret personalties and lifestyles of the NGO's, particularly Dr. Reed Noss.
We will continue to expose the Re-Wilding Agenda to our Legislatures and State Government Officials, as well as the public. This War on the West has changed substantially when Rural Americans like us learned how to use computers and network. Many of us joke that there is nothing more dangerous than a Redneck on a Computer, and that is the truth! With the internet we have reached thousands of like-minded Americans and Patriots!
I would like to remind Bob Ferris as he desperately tried to weave a fantastic story comparing wolf management to slavery, that your side has already lost and you have nobody but yourselves to blame. The Social Bigotry and Arrogance, as well as breaking hundreds of laws as your friends infilrated our IDFG, MFWP, and other State Agencies has exposed your true agenda to the world, and you are the minority fringe, trying to hang on to the last "few tax-dollars" via the EAJA Act.
I also won't be intimidated by people like Gary Wilson, all he has done has created a great cloud of suspicion upon himself and his friends. Attacking somebody with disabilities visciously on the internet, making fun of them, and wishing "harm" upon them is not just evil it is illegal.
Like my lawyer friend read to me internet stalking is very difficult to prove, but a paper-trail is mandatory. I not only have the paper-trail but the log of screen-shots. Also the fact I had Gary Wilson blocked. She also said, internet stalking can be defined as a person that forces their personality upon the victim, threatening them on the basis of their: race, political beliefs, religious beliefs, disability, sexual orientation, and disability.
By constatly harrassing me and stating that I am an invalid bitch, wheelchair cripple POS, etc., he has met those requirements.
Second attempt at posting,
I have never said my Pioneer Family killed Indians, let alone bragged about it. That lie was originally spread by Kristi Lloyd's friend Elizabeth Lewis. One of the first lies they created about me and my family, only a few months after getting in to the wolf fight online.
Chandie is a fine one to talk about internet stalking which is exactly what she does. She also keeps files on people for quick reference. I'm sure her screenshots are cherry picked as well. Thank you again for showing the mentality that Bob was highlighting. You proved his point beautifully. Right now I am sure you are devising ways to get back at me for this. It's what you do. YOU dug up background info on every single person you mentioned in your highlighted post above. YOU admit you have files. YOU have called workplaces of those with whom you disagree. YOU have given out people's phone numbers and addresses. YOU have told your friends to target _______ (fill in the blank for names). YOU bragged about getting an IDFG employee fired. YOU created a Nazi anti-wolf flag and saw nothing wrong with it. Like I said, keep proving Bob's point, and that of many others, you are doing a great job.
You need to read more closely. The word slavery does not appear in this piece ever. And I do not have minions. Moreover, I would never attack a person based on their gender, race, sexual oreintation or physical condition. My comments are directed at facts and conclusions as well as logic and illogic. And your lawyer probably also told you that the internet laws do provide some protections but the "stalkee" generally has to be blameless in the interchange and not have "invited" attention. Any judge looking at your collection of posts would likely sigh and say: You reap what you sow.
You seem to have a lot of stored up anger and energy. The world would be better served and you would likely be a happier person if that energy were directed in a more positive direction.
Kill em all! And I’m not going to bother burying em either. That way the rest of the pack, (if there are any) have something other than our livestock to eat.
Bob, a pro wolf, as in no hunting them ever, in fact he is totally agaisnt any hunhting, from your side just left us this;
"worthless genetic strain"
"I know this will throw a monkeywrench in your entire "conspiracy", but up until reading Mr Ferris on this blog, I never even knew of him, or about his organization."
"But he's right about you being similar to the Westboro mob. You are very much like those sort of bottom feeders and of the same worthless genetic strain."
"Good luck on your continuing hate crusade. You have no credibility with anyone that has an IQ over 95, poser." —Gary Wilson
Bob, who was using this worthless genetic strain definition in history towards other humans, what did they do with those they determined were the "worthless genetic strain" ?
How does someone with a Major level of collegiate education go around making comments like this impress you? And should I be impressed with him?
Congratualtions Mr. Ferris, you've impressed this young man.
So have you shared with your black friend your comments on this thread about “brown and black savages?” http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010/10/10/one-nation-rally-black-woman-assaults-white-woman-reporter-crickets/
This comment has to be more coherent for me to make sense out of what you are saying and also what you are asking.
Greg has also attempted to stalk me in Hailey, Idaho but has failed. He's provided such false information to his friends at the Westboro Wildlife Haters Club that it's borderline comical.
Here is what I've learned over the years. These people hate stastics, and especially science. Basically, anything that requires a higher level of cognitive thinking. Anytime you challenge them with it, their brains faulter into a comotose state and this triggers the primordial barbarian mode where they just go off on these off- tangent rants about "character", not being a super native, and of course the always comical "I wasn't brainwashed by the agents of Zion and didn't obtain a degree from Rome, and this makes me more knowledgeable as an armchair QB on the subject than you".
Sorry, but does anyone got the cliff notes version to the latest Chandie rant?
I'm sure it's all just one of her typical dewilding agenda rants, where deep down it's part of her trauma that she has due to being an invalid, and not being able to see the amazing places and sights that people like Bob fight to protect. I'm sure that has something to do with it. SO, she wishes to tear it all down. It's a subconcious hatred that is wired in her because of her status.
Good job, Bob. You've hit the nail on the head with this blog post. I've been dealing with these lowlifes for over a year now. My mistake was trying to post actual compiled elk harvest statistics on IDFG facebook page that I totaled off of their website. During my attempts to present this information, I encountered the hatred and wrath of the Bartells, Coe, and the rest of their North Idiothoan Westboro Wildlife Haters Club.
Since I am a seasoned internet bloger from the days of usenet, and have dealt with trolls like them long before they were out of their internet diapers, I didn't put up with their crap, and instead pushed back just as hard as they do. It may not be the best tactic, and I know it's a waste of real time, but either way, let them say what they wish.
Good luck Chandie finding anywhere that I said I wish harm on you. That's a bunch of BS. And while you have stated numerous times "getting cowboys to go cowboy" on me, I have never stated anything remotely similar to you. Yes, I think you are a lowlife. Yes, I think it's great you haven't had kids. Yes, I think you overstate your injuries… but those are my opinions and never once have I issued any physical threat on you. While, I do think you are a serious pathological liar, and basically an internet blog parasite (notice how few people post on the BBB, because you've sucked the life out of that place), I don't wish to limit your speech either. Carry on. Because I will continue to fight for the wildlife, while you fight to kill it all off because deep down you have a psychological condition that makes you hate all things that are wild.
I will also say that Chandie does twist people's words, lies and makes up conversations. I have never seen anyone threaten her. I have seen her use her disability (whatever it is) as a protective shield…she can say anything she wants to someone, then when they respond, she plays the disability card, and even here she is milking it. She gets zero sympathy from me because she brings this onto herself. I will say this though, she is an excellent copier and paster.
Please show me the screen shots of me hassling you, and post what pages those screen shots were on.
I don't chase you around the internet, you chase ME around the internet on WDFW pages, or the IDFG page, or other Western Pages.
Not once have I been on Michigan pages sticking my nose in your state's business.
Yes, we have plenty of screen shots on your rants and social bigotry.
This article actually helps us, as we're just going to give it to our Chairman of Natural Resource Committee to show why we can't work with radical environmental groups when it comes to Wildlife Management.
We've been blocked from interacting with each other on facebook but your continue to be obsesse with me, which isn't healthy. Making fun of people because they are rural or from Idaho, or disabled, among many other things reflects upon you not me.
I want to thank you for writing this article, and saving me hours of homework organizing screen shots of Kristi Lloyd's rants, as well as your other ardent supporters commenting on here.
This article along with it's sensationalism, and the comments of "intense hatred, lies, and social bigotry" will just sum up what I would like to report to our Legislatures about the types of radical anti-hunting extremists that believe they should be in charge of managing our wildlife in the State of Idaho, when none of them even are citizens of Idaho.
It also demonstrates the length you will go to, for utilizing the Saul Alinsky tactics to marginalize your opponents to further your Re-Wilding Agenda.
Do you really think this article is going to hurt my crediblity and reputation? Our legislatures are educated now about Agenda 21, Re-Wilding in addition to the Delphi Technique and Alinsky tactics.
You are now sir, truly a dinosaur.
It's hilarious that you are stating hunters and the hunting culture has more violence. Idaho has more guns per household in the form of: rifles, revolvers, semi-automatic pistols, even muzzle-loaders and we have the least amount of crime.
Everybody in my town hunts or comes from a hunting family in Potlatch, but there is "0" homocides by guns.
Gun violence isn't within rural America or Idaho but the urban metro areas:
Kristi Lloyd, You have no one to blame but yourself. I don't have files as I can't make screen shots, but plenty of rancher's wives have been diligently falling you around facebook taking screen-shots as well as anybody you have put down with your social bigotry.
You're are not what I would call a low-profile person on the internet, but very visible and well-known.
Also thank you for having Bob Ferris writie this article, and supporting it with your comments, it will save me the time from putting together all the notes I have for the legislatures so I can submit them into one easy one page report, and Bob's article has saved me a lot of preparation work!
Yes, Bob I agree with Kristi Lloyd this article of yours just proves a point we have been trying to make with our Legislatures about the manipulated Science Conservation Biology uses, which is not Traditional Biology, and the fact we can never trust the radical 501-3C groups regarding our wildlife within the great state of Idaho.
It also proves what a ignorant man you are when it comes to gun violence in rural America, as most people know and stats show it's Urban America with the highest amount of gun violence, and I tried to post those stats and article, but you have made it so nobody can post links or copy-paste on here.
Gary, There is something you constantly leave out, you initially attacked me on the IDFG facebook page, when I couldn't even respond as IDFG had me banned. We have the entire thread copy-pasted as we e-mailed it to our legislatures and Virgil Moore, who had Mike Keckler unblock us.
We also have many screen-shots of you attacking people, which you are famous for doing. Following us on our Western pages and putting down ranchers, hunters, and always putting down me when you had me blocked. I know about that as others would say, Gary is over here trashing Chandie again.
I leave you alone and don't mention your name, unless you start trashing me, then I respond.
That is where you and Kristi are telling gross falsehoods.
I am not sure about hilarious. Idaho is 15th out of 50 in per capita gun related deaths. Of the top 20 only one state was not a “red” state and that was New Mexico. Yes many of these were suicides, but…
We sure did get an IDFG employee fired, for posting he wanted to shoot cattle on USFS land!
Bob, You got some real winners here. Kristi Lloyd has harrassed all of us on every page out here, and is one of the biggest drama queens when it comes to lying and twisting facts. *She has destroyed her repuation so bad, that we all laught that we even like her, as she is going to sink the Wolves of the Rockies with her unprofessionalism and "hate" towards the people of the Rockies, faster than the Titanic.
GW-Spends all day and night pretending to work on his computer business, following people living in the effected states, as he "imagines" being attacked by everyone. Like I said he's been blocked from interacting with me, but is obsessed with me, and then "cries" like a baby and tells everyone he is being threatened by a woman thousands of miles away that is disabled.
The guy fits the profile of a Vengeful Stalker to a tee, and we have reams of his screenshots wanting to shoot livestock, as well as calling me an evil bitch, women the "c" word that he why the cowboys called him "Gunt," and I've never told the cowboys to cowboy him, but I have had rodeo guys say he shouldn't treat women that way.
Linda Camac makes hit lists on people.
Problem being an Eco-Terrorist is that your group is very tiny, and they all like an use every "tactic" in the book to try and discredit the Citizen of these States, and they don't even live out here.
That's why HJR-002, the Right to Trap passed in Idaho. You guys lost, we won.
I'm also sending this pathetic "Alinsky" letter to the Chairman of the Natural Resource Committee, that is ON our side, to further demonstrate the type of "radical nuts" that are out there that think that America is a country of Elitists, and the rural peasants are supposed to just bow down to them.
It's not going to happen.
Bob Ferris, there is now way you grew up in a hunting family for you to be so paranoid of guns, rifles, semi-automatic pistols to where you actually "imagine' that every hunter is a "serial killer, wife beater, child beater."
That stats prove that Rural America is the safest place to live and with the most guns, and population density of hunters.
You have no concept of what the hunting culture is, as you "think" every hunter is a poacher just like Kristi. She doesn't even understand what hunting units are or regs. None of you do.
GW just said we kill every animal, when we purchase a Sportsman Package every year, and many years don't even get an elk, but we still purchase the entire package, even though we only hunt elk. It's called Conservation, and giving back to the North American Model of Hunting, the most successful model in the world, so the common man can put meat on the table.
Balance of Nature is a myth. And you might want to know we have defectors from "your-side" exposing the Re-Wilding Agenda, environmentalists that worked some for 30 years and quit, because they couldn't stomach lying and stealing private property and destroying economies, and treating their fellow-man with such contempt.
Chandie. Here again your accounting of this is less than accurate (please see http://tomremington.com/2012/10/09/dare-we-speak-of-the-demons-within-our-fish-and-game-departments/#comment-771019378). Moreover,the event reflects poorly on you and reinforces the core messages of this piece. Here is a fellow who worked for IDFG for 25 years monitoring water quality and trying to protect fish populations. He is understandably frustrated with the livestock industry both for their impact on water quality (which is well documented) and also their unfounded anti-wolf rhetoric. Your bragging about getting someone fired–which you didn’t–only reflects your intolerance. How democratic is that?
BOB, PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO COMMENT TO SUPPORT US AND YOU AREN'T APPROVING THEIR COMMENTS.
Only one poster has been flagged in this thread. That person’s posts contained death threats that have been copied and forwarded to the appropriate authorities.
Mrs. Bartell taught my brother and cousins at Potlatch Elementary School. My family loved Mrs. Bartell and considered her one of the hardest working teachers at Potlatch Elementary. She was a great teacher and enjoyed the little children, and was famous for her farm unit, where the kids hatched chickens in the classroom.
My son is being Home Schooled and Mrs. Bartell helps him with history projects, just like the other day he had to write a paper about the Revolutionary War. She does this free with no charge, as well as tutors other students that ask for help.
Potlatch is a logging community and everyone knows and loves Mrs. Bartell, and even though she can't teach anymore, the community appreciates her unselfishly fighting for our hunting rights. We live in an low-economic community, and our town as well as all the other rural communities depend on wildmeat for sustenance.
I don't understand why people that don't live in Idaho should be involved or concerned about what is going on in our state.
Mrs. Bartell is a very generous person, she is kind and cares a lot about our community and our wildlife. If you're trying to make her out to be this awful person beause she doesn't like wolves, than you don't know Potlatch families or Idaho very well at all.
I also think it's horribly unfair for people that don't know Mrs. Bartell personally, to make up these lies about her. To think that she is faking her medical condition is laughable.
Mrs. Bartell is known as Miss History Buff. Everytime someone needs to find out anything about History, we just say call Mrs. Bartell she will know. It doesn't matter what period of history your kids are studying or writing a paper about, she will have the answer.
Dear Ms. Pomponio,
This is a wonderful testimonial that reflects well on Mrs. Bartell and our her knowledge of history, community spirit and generosity. Unfortunately, none of that is at issue here. What is at issue are her statements about wolves and her aggressive criticism of wolf experts in the absence of grounding or experience in biology,ecology, genetics or any other field relevant to understand the extremely complex predator-prey relationships necessary to fully appreciate the associated systems and phenomenon. I am happy that she in viewed as kind in your community, but that view is not liked shared by people she has insulted and belittled because they do not share her rather narrow vision of the world and natural systems. Your comment about Idaho is interesting because it is a state with considerable federal lands that are owned, by all of us. The notion is ironic because Mrs. Bartell has certainly not restricted her own comments to Idaho. It is also hard to reconcile your characterization with her working to get people in Idaho fired. And none of this is about her medical condition, I have a niece who is confined to a wheelchair and I would never question or comment on a person’s medical condition.
Thank you for your thoughts but nothing in this contradicts what is stated in the blog post.
My son is friends with Mrs. Bartell on facebook, and as a homeschooler he is assigned many projects and one subject he is interested in is wolves, as he wants to be a hunter someday, and will probably go out to Mrs. Bartell's to hunt for his first deer next year. He also wants to start trap shooting with her.
Sometimes his favorite thing to do is read when Mrs. Bartell educates on Washington or Idaho pages about wolves. He has learned a lot from her, but one thing he just said to me as he is yanking my sleeve is he recognizes a name on here very well, Kristi Lloyd!
He said, that he gets very angry reading Kristi Lloyd's rude remarks to people like ranchers and hunters, and calling them ignorant, slobs, and inbred rednecks. He also has stated that he has read when her and her friends go after Mrs. Bartell and others that really do live Idaho or Washington, and how rude they are to all of them with name calling, including making fun of her health, and saying she lives in a wheelchair and is an invalid, so how could she know what's going on. Mrs. Bartell lives far out in the country in N. Idaho, you don't!
I also understand that Kristi Lloyd lives back east, so why is she on every page in Idaho, Washington, and Oregon. Her mean inhuman remarks to not only Mrs. Bartell but all ranchers and hunters, calling them slobs, ignorant, illiterate, inbred hicks or rednecks is so childish, I refuse to let my 13 year old son even participate on these forums.
I have been a witness to these inhumane remarks made to the people that are hunters and ranchers that live in these states, and to me it looks like a bunch of people ganging up on the residents out here to force them to be quiet. Why the out-of-state city people and citizens back east try to tell them how to live.
You can say what you want Mr. Ferris, but I clean for Mrs. Bartell, and not only does she truly need assistance, but the way Kristi Lloyd and her friends make fun of her, and twist the facts, and enjoy inhumane jokes at others expence is one reason I got on here to make a comment.
Even though I use facebook, I'm not on the internet very much but when I read this article of yours I had to comment on this gross misjustice of facts and the truth.
You might appear to be highly educated, but for a man that has credentials you sure are dumb!
I do not think a “he said-she said” debate is productive here. And there is ample evidence that Mrs. Bartell gives as good as she ever gets. And while I am happy that her cleaning woman thinks highly of her and your loyalty to your employer is commendable, Mrs. Bartell has brought a lot of her grief upon herself by behaving with meanness and spite. Your son is your son but I would hesitate to let him spend time on Mrs. Bartell’s facebook page as much of the content and commentary is not suitable for a child his age and I would be concerned that the overall negative nature of her content and the associated comments would influence him. And to repeat, my comments on this blog are based solely on my experiences with Mrs. Bartell and have absolutely nothing to do with her condition.
I have known Mrs. Bartell since I was a child and my brother had her as a teacher. She is not simply my employer but friend. For your information I home-school my children as I am careful about the influences they have as teen-agers. Mrs. Bartell is not only a wonderful person she is also a great role model for my son, who will be hunting next year. I wouldn't have him joining a shooting range or participating in hunting activities if he wasn't with experienced adults that have the background and experience in those areas.
If you are implying that my son is offended by pictures of dead wolves or posts about our Constitutional Rights regarding the Second Amendment on her facebook page, that is how I want my son to be educated. I want him to know the truth about wolves, as all rural Idaho boys do, but also about our United States History, in regards to the Second Amendment.
Do you have something against hunting wolves and the Second Amendment too?
One of the wonderful things about this country–and I am a direct descendant of a Signer of the Declaration and his brother was the primary drafter of the Constitution coined the We the People phrase–is that I could very well disagree with you and that would be okay. As to home-schooling, its core weakness (and my sister home-schooled for a while) is that it is an insular educational approach. Unless it is aggressively supplemented by a breath of diverse experiences such as travel, exposure to other cultures/peoples, and an examination of the full breadth of philosophies, it tends to limit future opportunities and could hamper your child’s economic options. Mrs. Bartells’ facebook page presents one view and a very narrow view at that. If that is what you want, then that is your choice.
And yet, again. While you sit on a computer, never venturing out in the backcountry, I lived in Idaho, spent my time in the backcountry and have seen more of Idaho than you ever will in your life. I know you deep down hate that fact.
Good luck. I'm so in your head, that you spend all day running around trying to drum up crap about me. Other than just 15 minutes ago when I chimed on to this thread, you were completely out of my mind today. I could care less if I interact with you, but you are on just about every page that deals with wolves that it's impossible to almost not be somewhere and not have to interact with you. You have no life. You spend all day online. I do not. I have a real job. I have real committments. I am not like you..
So, whose obsessed with who again? The only reason I bothered to chime in on the BBB was because I thought Bob did an excellent job taking you and Farber, and a few others to school, and of course, me even chiming in escalated it to where you start your typical paranoid BS.
I realize you are an invalid and have schizophrenic tendancies, but your obssession over people like Kristi, myself and many others is sort of a mania that only a room with padded walls could solve.
My son is involved in all the sports at the Potlatch High School, and is involved many of our Community Events. He is friends with many people in our community, spends little time on facebook, and if you are concerned about the narrow views of Mrs. Bartell, maybe you better look at yourself. I just visited the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife Page, and the only RUDE people over there is your spokeswoman Kristi Lloyd calling people ignorant and hateful, and escapees out of an insane asylum.
I see many people trying to talk some sense with her and reason, as she slings insults at everyone. Why does is she over on the Washington State page talking about something she clearly has no experience or knowledge about, and treating the residents as sub-human?
Can you answer that question?
Better read again and quit twisting and lying, which I also said you do. You don't know traditional biology in the first place then YOU call Bob ignorant? Anybody who disagrees with you you call a radical. Stats and "info" from one of your blogs I'm sure, very reliable source. You do not agree with me because I am not talking about manipulated science or the Idaho Legislature, which is just as far-right as you are. Instead of copying and pasting, how about explaining those articles using your own words? Don't forget to include the source.
Mr. Ferris, We will have to disagree on this issue. I think you have discredited yourself completely with your article that misrepresents hunters. I come from a hunting family, live in a community and have friends that hunt and nobody fits the descripton you have tried to portray in your article.
With all of it's fantastic exaggerations about hunters, and the gross misrepresentation of what they will become in your own Science Fiction Horror film, that survives in your own head, I think YOU need to get out more and meet the cultures you're trying to pigeon hole, with a square peg!
It's obvious you are an urban dweller that is uncomfortable with the rural Culture of the West.
I also think if you are going to slander people, providing proof would be more believeable, but after reading your representation of hunters, and realizing your are culturally deprived, I don't doubt you are also as dishonest as you are over-imaginative.
OK, so now you are saying you don't have files after you admitted that you do have files (see Kevin Ranker's and WDFW's FB pages). Which is it? This has nothing to do with blame, but everything to show how low you will go just because you disagree with someone about wolves. Is that normal behavior? I don't think so. And now I"m being followed around Facebook by ranchers' wives…is that normal behavior? Again, no. Of course you would have nothing to do with that, right? Just like you said on the SM Blog. I am "well-known" because you made me well-known by talking about me so much, because you don't like me, don't like what I say, don't agree with me about wolves and how ignorantly hysterical you and many of your anti-cohorts are, which is the point of this blog entry. Go ahead and submit them to your legislature. I'm sure they will thank you profusely and give you a medal. Maybe even name a post office after you. What notes did you take by the way? Are they in a file maybe? But wait, you don't keep files. My mistake.
Once again, you are reinforcing the point of this blog. You prove it more and more every time you post something. Maybe you should stop it. You misrepresented and twisted things yet again. As usual. You really do have a hard time keeping track of what you say and where you say it. Perhaps you should check your files.
I don't take screen shots. Why don't I? Because I am not a hysterically ignorant, conspiracy-theorist/believer, sociopathic, ultra-conservative, right-wing extremist who feels the need to keep files on people, or have ranchers' wives follow someone on Facebook (as you said in your post). I don't know how those women have the time to follow me since they are out tending their precious cows and repairing fences and out protecting their livestock—because ranching is such hard work and time consuming. Yes, you have been in comment sections following MI wolf stories and yet you tell others to keep their noses out of Idaho's business—hypocritical, no? You know what you can do with those screen shots? Put them in your file. Did I say anything about you hassling me? No, but you did. You constantly make things up and think they are reality. Go ahead and show this to whomever you wish. It will only prove the point of this blog even more and reinforce what Bob has written and show even more people how unstable you are. And there you are playing the disability card again.
And why were you banned, Chandie? Because you were sounding rational, logical, and being nice to everyone? Pretty sad when an agency in your own state bans you and several of your friends from posting on its Facebook site. Which they ended up taking down because IDFG couldn't post anything that made you and your friends not tear it up and fill it full of garbage. Chandie, it's pretty much a given that we will be on the same page regarding wolves. Nobody follows you anywhere, that is a guarantee. First, not many people have the spare time that you do and want to devote all of it to sitting at a computer and ruling over their kingdom via the internet. Try again on the falsehoods thing. Or not, it again proves the point of this blog.
I think I'll just contact the girls you fight with out WEST on the WDFW and other pages for screen shots that "frame" your terrific personality. You got to remember Kristi Lloyd, we have been fighting the Green Dragon, since the Spotted Owl scam shut down logging 30 years ago. Living in poverty for 30 years, tends to make rural Westerners not very tolerant of your lies and scams. Fool us once shame on you, fool us twice shame on me. The wolf scam just was the last straw, that broke the camel's back.
Kristi I didn't come looking for you in Michigan, you came out and forced your self upon US. That is the difference
I see your still making up the lies about files. I don't have files and screenshots, I have an army full of people that have chronocled your hate from one facebook page to another. This is all you do, and you don't even live out here, so that makes you a paid liar most likley.
Given out people's names and addresses where is the proof in all of this. Like I said, we have a lot of people researching you, for interfering with our personal livelyhoods. The people of the West didn't invite you out here to put them out of work, or end their hunting, or destroy their livestock and pets and lifestyle.
You chose this activist role, it's not going to be easy, and it will be much more rougher, since the good people of the West understand about Agenda 21, Re-Wilding. We know about it. The gig is up.
Regarding the Green Nazi Flag, tell the truth for once, it was a green flag with the Nazi Symbol inside it, which stood for the New World Order, the UN Re-Wilding Agenda.
Of course you left that out.
Kristi Lloyd you have been so rude on facebook, that we actually adore you, as you make our job so much easier!
So does Bob Ferris with his arrogance.
Chandie, You do know that the spotted owl had nothing to do with Idaho, this was a coastal forest issue? Hardly see how you had a dog in that fight with your steadfast Idaho-centrism. Or are you saying that people in other states have a stake in how federal forests are managed? I also find it amazing that you posted something about fee recovery at non-profits because you felt that the $43 million paid out over a decade was a fiscal disaster and too much of a subsidy to the non-profit (public interest) sector. Yet you see nothing wrong with the roughly $123 million annual subsidy to livestock producers grazing on and damaging public lands in the West. The inconsistency in your philosophy is astounding. And you really need check yourself on the New World Order dribble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory) it is sad and tired as well as the Agenda 21 tripe.
And the green nazi flag has nothing to do with the New World Order it was the symbol of the defunction Libertarian National Socialist Green Party which has been listed as one of the dumbest party ideas (see http://www.businesspundit.com/10-of-the-dumbest-political-parties/). Didn't really have any members to speak of and isn't connected at all to the environmental or conservation movement in the US. So your condescending "tell the truth" was out of line.
Ms. Pomponio, I am not familiar with your name at all. I have no recollection of seeing you anywhere before today. I think you should re-check my posts on WDFW. As soon as the anti-wolf people started posting I wrote, the inmates are taking over the asylum, because that is what they do.. I did not write what you wrote above. I am not a spokeswoman for Bob or his organization. I think you better look again at that site and check rudeness by many anti-wolf people in ID, OR, and WA. I've had very civil conversations, particularly with the rancher who is responsible for having the Wedge pack killed, have posted information (like the kind that can be proven—-even then I was the recipient of some rather unpleasant conversation). There is a lot of ignorance on that page…ignorance, misinformation, unproven, irresponsible statements regarding what ranchers do, what wolves do, and many posts unrelated to wolves. I have not insulted anybody. However, I received insults. Really, you need to go over there again and see what I have really written. It's a whole other scenario from what you describe. Or are you just going by what Chandie has told you?
Read this real slow! I didn't see you out, you seeked me out on IDFG pages or WDFW pages.
You harrassed people out here with your curt snide remarks, not the other way around.
I don't keep files on you, I don't have to as we have an army of people that collect information on every NGO and activist.
I don't have rancher women follow you, they say you follow them onto their Oregon sites, Washington sites, Idaho sites, they say you are on every site out WEST, with your buddies Gary Wilson, Ken Cullings, etc.,
None of you live out here, and most live back east.
Why was I banned from IDFG before you had Gary Wilson get on there, as you sent him over there, because I am a critic of IDFG.
I never said I had files on you on Ranker's page, I said I was sent a letter from YNP, from one of the hundreds of employees that gives us information on what's going on in the PARK.
Do you really think we would of learned about that man that jumped in the river because of a wolf, if we did'n't have "relatives" and friends that work inside YNP?
Do you really think Doug Smith's secret of destroying a National Treasure is going to go on forever?
Do you realize we have information from inside the park on swans, that have been decimated by wolves?
You might want to think twice about your activist work, because it's going to be very abrasive, very hostile, very unpleasant as people's lives have been destroyed.
Echinococcus granulosus is just heating up right now with more samples of diseased elk being brought in from Lemhi County.
Wolf introduction and the people who forced the Re-wilding, Agenda 21, United Nations Treaty on us is going to go down as one of the greatest social injustices in our American History.
The hate you have for the cowboy, is not shared by the majority of Westerners it's our culture.
This blog wasn't about hunters. A LOT of people in Idaho, and other states, do fit the description that Bob very well laid out. Actually, you have also proven his point even moreso.
Chandie, does targeting people, calling people's workplaces, taking pride in getting someone fired (only to find out that didn't happen) not considered harrassment? This is what you do and now you have tried to discredit me on a wildlife department's page. Apparently you can't post there under your own name and are posting there using your husband's name. Which is also what you did when you got banned on the IDFG page. Take a look at your own credibility—you are so dire to strike out at people you can't even wait to have your own account activated to communicate with people that you have to use your husband's account, and have someone else plead your case to Bob. And you call me a drama queen—-start looking a bit harder in the mirror. Linda NEVER made a "hit" list, that is how your twisted view of reality perceived a list of anti-wolf people who were trying to invade pro-wolf people's FB pages. Another example of emotional and intellectual maturity. Keep on proving yourself and your cause, you are doing great! Repeating something ad nauseum will not make it true, Chandie. I have never said that all hunters were poachers, again that is how YOU perceived it because you generalize, you accuse, you assume, you lash out, you are defensive, you don't know a constructive way to express yourself so you go on the attack. You think you can talk to people and say anything you want to about them anyway you want. Then when those people defend themselves you ramp it up and get more dire in your attempt to intimidate or expose or whatever your goal is. You seriously do need something else in your life to focus on.
Hey Blob, "REMOVE MY PROPERTY FROM THIS POST"! Both my profile pic and media created by me for the exclusive use by me and Save Western Wildlife, are as such my intellectual property. I hold and inforce copyright on all that I create. If you would wish in the future to use "anything" that I have created, don't cyber stalk and just grow a set and ask! YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED BY MY ANSWER.
Actually I had another friend contact me today and left a message and she said it was in moderation. Her name is Brandy Shale Davis from N. Idaho.
I have not seen the post. I am posting everything that comes in that is not selling something, does not contain a death threat or other illegal action, and does not have comments demeaning any individual classes of people.
I have a set and thanks for asking, but you might want to check out the concept of "fair use" which does not require permission used in this context.
The above was forwarded to me. Although the irony of Barry Coe AKA Idaho Roper giving you advice both on internet etiquette and name-calling is sublime, this post seems a stark contrast to how you and your endorsers are trying to portray you. Seems like a slight thing to talk about kicking someone's teeth in and perhaps a little bit worse when you write it, but this is not an isolated occurance. Nor is it an appropriate response by an adult having a conversation–even in a heated debate.
Do you really think that you are winning the hearts and minds of anyone beyond your small circle?
Two dogs bit the bullet this am. Blob, in your honor of course. The shame of it is that they were coyotes instead of wolves, but they will do for now. I'm just sharpening the skills, if you know what I mean.
I also want to add that "our small circle" whooped your ass in the wolf debate, this is the very reason that it is "Open season" on the varmints in nearly all the West that matters.
You just keep bangin away on your keyboard and we'll keep pullin the trigger. Sounds like a deal to me!
Oh, and by the way dipshit, this isn't Scott.
You urbanites all think alike, "You know everything"!
I am sorry this how you chose to define your life. As to winning the wolf debate, all social change is a long process and I have been in involved in this effort for a long time and when I look at where we were in the early 1980s and where we are now looks like a lot of wolf recovery progress is being made.
You are correct I saw the "Rockhom" and assumed Scott rather than the younger brother Chris who is a machinist but wants to be a video game designer not to be confused with the other brother Frederic who is co-founder of SWW along with Scott. The "you urbanites" comment is a little ironic as we were both born in California and our parents live in the Grass Valley area. Who exactly are you talking to?
Wow. This is an interesting thread.
It's amazing how far having the manners and mentality of an 8 year old child would go to help some of these people.
In a nutshell, we all have feelings about wolves. They are based on many things, for some of us, that is science, actual facts and data, etc. For others it is based on fear, decades of ignorance and hatred of the government.
No matter which way you lean, I assume most of the people out here are over 18. That would indicate they are adults. I think it's sad that the name calling and crazy fest take over and not only take focus off of the subject at hand, but apparrently internet posting appears to enhance peoples abilities to make complete asses of themselves. Many of them do this under fake names…I see some of those on this page. It's easy to let it fly and not censor yourself when you hide behind a fake log on id. Really brave. Zero accountability.
I have been targeted by most of the people mentioned in this article. I have had multiple Instant messages sent to me of a harrassing, intimidating and aggressive nature.
Scott Rockholm posted a personal webpage of mine from a weight loss support group on one of his wolf pages. I have been ridiculed for my weight, my husband has been targeted in pictures they have circulated and there is a point where you have to say 'What the hell does someones physical appearance have to do with this debate or issue?"
The answer is nothing. I'm not the only person they do this to. The anti side is on a constant vigil to embarass/intimate people to a point where they think they will drop out and shut up. It's called being a bully. It's something small children who are out of control do when they lash out at people who they don't like, see as being mean or want to phsycally intimate so they can feel stronger.
The latest comment I saw was on an anti page that said 'Shelly Bristow, a fat cow who hates fat cows".
I take offense at that remark. Not because I'm fat, because I don't really care if they think Im fat. I care because I don't hate cows. I don't hate ANY animal. That's because it's really stupid to hate animals and makes no sense. To me people who hate animals don't understand why animals are here. I think it's funny they want to focus on my weight. I actually have so many more annoying traits they could focus on. It's lame that they have to go with that one, but it's the easy insult…and these people really aren't very smart and they aren't going to take any real effort to do anything. The thing I see them most adept at is sitting in front of a computer cruising FB 24/7. Which is ironic as they want to insult the big city dwellers and all their technology, while they act like they are living off the land. Ummmmmm, living off the land means no wi-fi or internet in my book. These folks are so addicted that they have multiple log ons, as they are commonly put on FB time out. I doubt they can stay off FB more than one day without going into some sort of withdrawl. Some of them claim to be ranchers or ranch wives or hunters….Im not sure how they get any of their chores done or hunting accomplished with the amount of time they spend on threads, blogs, etc out here. I sum that up as they as big, fat hypocrites.
As far as the hating cows comment goes, I will say I don't approve of ranchers who feel entitled to use public grazing land for dirt cheap, screw up our environment and want to kill everytihg that walks across there grazing allottments that isnt a cow. Now, not all ranchers have that attitude, and those aren't the ones I dislike.
In summary, there are some loons on the pro wolf and the anti wolf side…..they tend to be really extreme. In the end…those won't be the people making any difference in the wolf situation. They will be the ones off on the side so busy bickering, bullying and wasting their time keeping files and screen shots that they will miss out on what it will take to change the situation. Good riddance…the more time they spend bitching about wolves on FB 24/7 the less chance they will be out shooting anything.
I have blocked most of these people as they are a complete joke and a waste of time. Just reading the above comments renewed my appreciation for the invention of the delete and ban button on facebook. If at all possible, they are even more wing nut than they were a year ago.
My wish for them is that they get a grip, take a long look at their lives and possible get on medication, get counseling or take up a hobby that gets them to relax and enjoy life a little. It's fairly obvious that they are some very disgruntled, unhappy folks with no actual purpose or direction in life. When your main goal and reason for getting out of bed everyday is to kill or eradicate an animal…when that's the thing that keeps you going? Well…I can't think of anything more pathetic than that.
While they do that, I'm attending meetings, speaking with elected officials and the local WDFW in order to find solutions to striking a balance and fairness in the wolf situation that gives something to all parties involved. It's hard work, and it's going to take a long time. But at least it's not wasted time spent telling some anti wolf person they have a fat ass. I'm not sure how that changes anything.
You don't have any balls Pete, but I'm sure Linda Camac has a set she can loan you.
Bob, my first post here. Sorry to take up so much space, but meant to support your article
A letter to Washington Game Commisioner Phil Anderson by Lynn Stuter, reproduced at BBB.
Let's look at what Lynn writes.
1.Canadian Grey Wolf
The Canadian Grey wolf is the same type of wolf that was here before. Not true. The Timber Wolf (Canis lupis irremotus) is the native wolf of the Pacific Northwest. An entirely different species than the Canadian Grey wolf.
Same tired argument, but this times it's a different species!
2. Tapeworm back to E. granulosus.
Not to say that precautions should not be taken, but even David Mech referred to the issue as a tempest in a tea pot. E. granulosus has been in MN for a long long time, 100,000s of thousands of visitors to the BWCAW, not to mention the locals. NO CASES!
3. The Canadian wolf eats 10 to 20 pounds of meat per day!
Well, wolves can down over twenty pounds in a day, but per day? The insinuation wolves eat that much daily is disingenuous.
4. Elk herds are in decline in Idaho . This is related to fire issues in the wild. Outright lie. There has not been a serious fire in the Lolo Zone since wolves were introduced in Idaho in 95/96. Idaho Fish and Game finally admitted, years too late, that wolves were the cause of the decimation of the largest elk herd in Idaho, in the Lolo Zone.
No doubt that wolves have had impact on Idaho elk, yet again, the reference to Lolo elk is disingenuous. So, let's look at some history of the area
Though not at the meeting, I can only assume the fires referred to in this letter are the historic fires that benefitted elk.
Specifically, historic fires of a century ago (known as the Great Burn) transformed the Lolo into optimal habitat for elk. Forests were destroyed and lush, verdant meadows and clearings were created. Elk prospered, and the Lolo, for the time being, became legendary elk hunting grounds, generating sizeable and dependable income for IDFG.
Now that the historic fires in that area are a century behind us, the Lolo is transforming back to its natural, latent state of dense forest, as it was when Lewis and Clark first saw it, devoid of quantities of large game. As the forests filled in, the elk population of the Lolo was in steep decline, far before wolf packs lived in the area. Harsh winters in the mid-1990’s accelerated this decline. Once again, these facts are all well documented by IDFG.
Neither wolves nor any other carnivores can be blamed for these changes in the landscape and the wildlife that inhabit it.
Also, in discussion with Rattler and Idaho Roper, the issue of over hunting was discussed when i made a Lolo omment on TWN. Rattler even says as much here. My assumption is he is referring to Lolo. If I am wrong, I apologize, but it is almost identical to a comment made by Roper on BBB. Bob, in a recent comment to you by Rattler.
"In two discussions we had in the last year I agreed that the wolf is not totally to blame for the declines in elk here where I live. While I disagree that habitat was part of the problem here, I do agree that migrating elk moving into controlled hunt units with longer seasons was. Also cow elk and doe deer have been over hunted here for years. IDFG at the meetings ignored the hunters in attendance that wanted those hunts stopped or reduced. "
And IDFG has commented that it wasn't until 2005 that wolf depredation on elk herds and livestock began to rise sharply.
To conclude this point, Lolo elk numbered ~ 16,00 in 1988. About 13,000 at reintroduction time. Less than 8,000 after severe winter of mid nineties, and the slide continued.
I'm not saying wolves don't have impact on current Lolo elk, or that wolves should not be managed. The blame for the Lolo elk decline is multifaceted, and wolves were late comers to the decline.
And some voodoo math
Niemeyer claimed that only 5% of livestock that die is predation caused. Sounds really minor doesn’t it – only 5%? Now let’s take a herd of even 100 cattle, what would be considered a small livestock operation. That equates to 5 cattle killed by wolves. Now, let’s take the cost of raising and maintaining those cows, the value of the cow, and loss of future calves when the cow is killed by wolves. That 5% just turned into a lot of money, even if 5% is accurate.
No, he said only "5% of cattle that die" is predation caused, not wolves kill 5% of cattle.
So back to math. If 5 cattle out of 100 die, 5% of the cattle that died are tied to predation
Let's see. 5% of 5 is .25cattle! Yes, some ranchers are impacted more by wolves than others, some not at all. But the fact is the twisting of what was said is not true.
The Wildlife News is often referred to as Wild lies over at BBB. Really! A letter such as this would have been picked to the bone at TWN. At BBB it's looked at as truth.
Sorry, should read 16,000 in 1988.
And,let me venture a guess,Todd, Barry or Scott?, try a real name and if you “create” a fan page at least have to fortitude to identify who you are.
What is this paranoid crap about a UN Green Rewilding Agenda? Do you wolf-haters realize how crazy you sound?
Thanks for posting this. Lynn Stuter is a conservative commentator. Her bio is as follows: Mother and wife, Stuter has spent the past ten years researching systems theory with a particular emphasis on education. She home schooled two daughters, now grown and on their own. She has worked with legislators, both state and federal, on issues pertaining to systems governance and education reform. She networks nationwide with other researchers and citizens concerned with the transformation of our nation. She has traveled the United States and lived overseas.
Nothing in here demonstrates that she has any qualifications to comment on wolf issues, but this is typical of what is posted on BBB or Skinny Moose.
I would bet my life that our upbringing and background is as different as Republican and liberal, nice try though!
"Chris" the younger? Frederic the co-founder? As I stated in an earlier post, "You urbanites all think alike, "You know everything"!
I have asked Chandie several times over the past year how the spotted owl of the west coast was responsible for shutting down logging in Idaho. She has never responded.
Bob, I have plenty of screen shots of Kristi Lloyd referring to my husband as my brother, is there a way I can post them and others on here, that your supporters failed to submit to you?
Chandie, are you sure here name was Lolo Clyde? She used to visit my mother in Moscow Idaho and here name to my recollection was Lola.
Looking at what Immer Treue wrote above, his supposed critique of my letter to Phil Anderson, I’ve come to conclude that the problem with the pro-wolfer crowd is an inability to think logically or rationally, and reasoning is totally out of the question. Not uncommon of people easily used. They are called sheeple for a reason.
Interesting what Immer Treue chose to pick at. He carefully avoided the pro-wolfers contention that wolves are the precursor to your dog, that non-lethal tools are ineffective and the Range Rider program has to be paid for at the ranchers expense. He also carefully avoided the fact that hunting wolves as game animals will not hold numbers in check; that aerial gunning will be required. Even at that, wolves will not be wiped out as the pro-wolfers continually whine.
His claim that the Canadian Grey is indigenous to the Pacific Northwest shows his ignorance, not his knowledge. The designation of Canis lupis irremotus was changed to Canis lupis because the USFWS wanted to import wolves from Canada; they could not do so as long as Canis lupis irremotus was recognized as the native wolf by the Endangered Species Act. Even a modicum of research, on his part, would divulge the path the process took. Old timers remember the Timber Wolf well; it was an entirely different animal than the Canadian Grey.
Immer Treue’s rundown of the Lolo Zone elk herd is interesting. What he wrote is tantamount to saying that your sick animal, killed by a bear, died because it was sick, not because it was killed by a bear! The fact that your sick animal might have survived, if the bear hadn’t killed it, is obviously outside Treue’s ability to comprehend. And yes, IDFG did finally acknowledge that wolves had decimated the Lolo herd.
I also liked when he made this statement, “The Canadian Wolf eats 10 to 20 pounds of meat per day! Well, wolves can down over twenty pounds in a day, but per day? The insinuation wolves eat that much daily is disingenuous.” I have to laugh. It was the WDFW forum panelist who made the claim that the Canadian Grey eats 10 to 20 pounds of meat per day. Quite obviously, had Immer Treue figured that out, before he flipped out, he would have said nothing. But since he thought I was making that claim, he decided that it was disingenuous. Conclusion – Immer Treue’s critique of my letter to Phil Anderson is, you guessed it, disingenuous, start to finish.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with how many elk one wolf kills in one year – about 50/wolf. And while that was also in my letter, he makes no mention of that. Quite obviously, talking about how many elk a wolf kills in one year versus how many they actually eat does not serve the pro-wolfer agenda.
And I just love the “voodoo math” thing. In the end, he makes no reference to the crux of the matter – that percentage loss is being used, deliberately, to minimize the far greater economic loss that percentage represents; a fact that the pro-wolfer crowd definitely does not want brought into the equation of wolf management. Of course, it’s not the livelihood of the pro-wolfer crowd that is being adversely affected.
You people really need to stop and look at yourselves. You are so rabidly pro-wolf that logical thinking and reasoning totally escapes you. In reading some of your posts, you worship wolves like they were some kind of god; but, in the end, that worship seems to emanate from a need to adversely affect other people’s lives. So when someone speaks of the reality of living with wolves, you go off the beam – just like Immer Treue did in his supposed critique of my letter to Phil Anderson.
As for Bob Ferris’ off-the-wall claim that “Nothing in here demonstrates that she has any qualifications to comment on wolf issues” – what you know and what you assume are quite obviously miles apart. And what you assume is also obviously what you act on, ergo all the assumptions in your rant!
One last thing, ladies and gents, you know you are having the desired effect when people like you start squealing!
I see that you are the only one that can post a link, and left my comment about posting screen-shots of your supporters in moderation.
Also Bob, I know the people in the Rural West, very well. I don't think your Earth First tatics and double-speak are going to work with our people, they have been the victims of abuse and lies for so long from your collegues, that they would probably buy me coffee or lunch for having the grit to fight back.
As a matter of fact I have a lot of support not only in my community, but all the rural communities. When you can walk into a cafe and get introduced in Calder, Idaho for being a wolf warrior and fighting the agenda of IDFG, and all the locals want to buy you drinks or lunch, that is my reward.
I'm doing this for our people, our heritage, and the next generation in a country and state I grew up to love.
I tell you what come to Potlatch, and I will introduce you and give everybody your background and what you do, and then we'll see what type of reception you would get in a logging community.
I've noticed you not only censor, but have disabled the ability for us to post screenshots of comments your fans like Kristi Lloyd etc., have made over the years. Good thinking on your part.
Only ones reading this pitiful attempt of character assasination if you and your internet "Earth First thugs," and the people you have tried to slander.
Your letter to Mr. Anderson was extremely flawed and filled with inaccuracies that demonstrate your utter lack of understanding of a complex set of issues. Your facts are shaky and your extrapolations as well as your analyses indicate you are someone who is not familiar with science, math or basic ecological principles– ergo you are not qualified. As a former college level instructor, I do not need to see your qualifications to know that your grasp of the subject matter is weak and that you have insufficient grounding to be taken seriously, I simply have to read what you wrote. Also wolves do not have “nationalities” as they freely traverse across borders and also travel great distances and at the same time exchange genetic material. This whole Canadian wolf thing is a childish and jingoistic construct. And “gray” in this country is spelled with an “a” rather than an “e.”
What I flagged on your mistake laden letter was:
I made no claim about what wolf was indigenous or not, other than your argument was tired.
You referral to the "Canadian gray" as a different "species" is wrong.
Livestock depredation in regard to the Niemeyer quote: your math was wrong.
In regard to wolves eating 10 to 20 pounds per day, whether from you or whoever you quoted is just plain wrong. You are quick to point out an obfuscation, but all to ready to use it as a tool. Wolves are lucky to eat once every five to seven days or so. This knowledge is readily available, so why would you use the wolves eat 10 to 20 pounds per day lever in your letter? You were wrong to do so.
Lolo: you brought up fires in your letter. I provided some historical background in regard to Lolo fires. I believe IDFGis even Suggesting the use of burns to improve elk habitat. Wolves did not reduce elk numbers from 16,000 to 2,000. Many variables have contributed to the elk decline: severe Winters; over hunting of cows;'habitat decline (also ited by IDFG). Wolves certainly are not helping elk recovery, but wolves are not the lone cause of the Lolo elk decline. In your rebuttal to my thread you ramble on about bears…?
Wolves kill 50 elk per wolf per year? Sources please?
Wolves as being the ancestral stock of dogs. An obfuscation? No, common fact, and any body who knows anything about wolves and dogs know they are not a good mix. I never let my dog wander far from me, especially at night. Spectacular full moon last night almost like day time in the North. Nice time to walk in the woods.
E. granulosus. No rebuttal? Interesting that the anti- wolf crowd feels free to use certain Mech quotes, but don't particularly care for the tempest in a tea pot in regard to E. granulosus.
Lynn, I attempt to attack the message, not the person. Your letter was flawed from the beginning. I guess the best thing you could have done for those of us who are pro-wolf, was send it to Mr. Anderson as written.
And before you attempt to generalize about me, I have never been against responsible, fair chase, science based wolf management. I live very rural, in Superior National Forest with wolves at my back door, on the edge of perhaps some of the highest wolf densities in the world. I have taught about wolves, the pros and cons about wolves, and have written about them.
In conclusion, I did not "flip out", but pointed out some pretty egregious flaws in your letter.
I don't care if you have no or little love for wolves, or those who support wolf recovery, but if you are going to write such a letter, why not try to proof read it first, before sending it.
Looks like I'm going to have to try and locate Mrs. C. Anderson, as well as some of her co-workers to vindicate her name that is being slandered by Bob Ferris. Mrs. C. Anderson was a wonderful teacher, and even though she took singing the Confederate National Anthem very seriously, every morning in class, it was not in the "racial predjudiced" context you are portraying it as.
I also am friends with Lola Clyde's grandson, and he still lives local as well as others that might have had that class with me.
I at least owe that to Mrs. C. Anderson, who was a wonderful teacher. She not only taught us a Civil War Unit, she also had us write to Vietnam vets. She did not present the Civil War unit within the "senstational" context you are attempting to snear her professionalsim in.
That wasn't done during a debate. ha- Keep trying.
Spotted Owl was the surrogate test case to shut down logging, by using fraudulent "science" such as Old Growth, instead of the real cause "predation."
Monkey Wrenching of your buddies went from tree spiking to paper monkey wrenching to "stop" logging jobs, through litigating, using any excuse gause hawks, bull trout, the list goes on.
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